. And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. Theres no contradiction there at all. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. Theres more to it than that. Please try again later. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. As far as Revelation chapter one to six, I dont see anything thats in there that talks about Mary. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Thanks for the super chat. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. So it still fits semantically. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. This is not a commitment to lend. No. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. What about after the apostolic age? He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. I mean, I have to really think about that. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. GANYARD: It sure is, George. Yeah. I dont know if I would. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. Discover Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie 's Biography, Age, Height, Physical Stats, Dating/Affairs, Family and career updates. So do it. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. Should we baptize babies or not? Okay. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. I believe all things are possible with God. Landlord. Yeah. Whether youre up to speed or not on the contents of the Deuterocanon, this is an insightf. He was human. We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. Locals is a free speech platform. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: So I agree with that. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. This is not the rule. He put that on his glorified resurrection body after the resurrection. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. Okay. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. Steve Christie: According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. Thank you very much, Trent. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. I mean, aside from the dogmas, I think one of the ones that make me cringe is that Catholics worship Mary, where every time I hear that, Im like And I brought it up, but I explained I came about it through a different way. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Because they have the same father but different mothers. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. But lets have this be the last response to a response, because then Im going to ask Trent to question, then you are going to get to respond to that. Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. He was put on a cross. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. Well, again, this is the exception. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. We dont believe that is the case. Thank you. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. You would expect there to be deviations from it. This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. Itll change your life, no doubt. Its like, because-. So at an early age, I think about around age three. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. Book now for free with CMG Booking. It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. Thank you very much, Trent. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. Thats good for me too. Okay. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. Can you repeat the question real quick? All right. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. And I can honestly say the same thing about Mary especially with the oppression of Rome and the Jews especially after Jesus was born. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. Moreover, there was diversity of thought among Jews until the second century after Christ over what constituted the Hebrew canon. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? I say this by way of concession, not of command. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. And hes not. Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. All righty. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. Since the Catholic church is certain that the brothers of Jesus are anything other than biological siblings, meaning uterine siblings, why are they not able to be just a certain specifically who they are? And the fact that Trent is saying that the holy family would not need to apply to that, hes imputing his Catholic theology into the text. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. This is really great. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. So again, argument by exception. . Shameless plug. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. This next question comes from [Mcart 01:28:41] 1977. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. Yeah. And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. Yeah. He became sin for us. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? Do you still have it? And we know this because this is explicitly stated in scripture. Lets see. So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? So just a historical note for everybody watching. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. Please join our community. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. Mary always leads us to her son. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? Yeah. In the late 1980s, Cohen was an ardent enthusiast of Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika reforms; he and his wife, Katrina vanden Heuvel, now editor in chief of The Nation, co-authored Voices of . And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. Im not alone in believing this. So Im going to put a link in the description below. I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? Do you know him? Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. SeanMcDowell.org. Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. . Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. The question for Joseph-. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. Yeah, sounds good. Eastern Christianity, St Thomas Aquinas & The Immaculate Conception w/ Fr. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. Yes. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. So this next question is for you, Steve. Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. 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